The Hudson Valley Disc Golf Podcast

73. Disc Golf Hall of Famer John Houck

• HVDG • Episode 73

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Pat:

Welcome to the Hudson Valley Disc Golf podcast, a forum for Disc Golfers to talk Disc Golf. My name's Pat Keenan, and this week, it's just me, at least for the intro. Like the early days of the podcast. Don't go back and listen to the audio was horrible. This week, Jack was able to get course designer John Houke, to talk a little bit about Saxon woods for a special we're putting together. This isn't that. This is the other stuff. After we got what we needed for the special, we still had time and questions for John. We even got him to play a round of Disc or no Disc. Take a listen as Jack, Ryan, Angelo and myself, have a conversation with Freestyle Frisbee and Disc Golf Hall of Famer, John Houke.

Ryan:

I did want to ask a couple of design philosophy questions, and I know we don't have Jack.

Pat:

He's going to be a couple of minutes. I think he's going to have to do a full reboot. So if you're okay with that, we've got a couple. Can I ask a question before you do. What is the most common design question that people ask you?

John:

The one you just asked. Oh my God you guys have some really unique questions. What is the most common design question? Wow. Help me out here. What question would be foremost in your mind?

Pat:

Ryan, what's yours?

Ryan:

That's a good transition. One question I have. I was talking some guys in my local clubs, some other guys from the New Jersey area as well and crowdsourced, a couple of questions. And a lot of people were asking about how to design the perfect Hole from a scoring separation perspective. So I guess my question to you would be sort of in a mad lib, a perfect Hole should have what amount of birdies, what amount of pars and what amount of bogeys or worse in a given round, percentage wise.

John:

That's a fair question. I think the answer is that there should be a variety of scoring spreads within a course. And so it's more important, that you have that in the aggregate of the 18 holes and you're not shooting for any one Hole necessarily to have a particular spread. And you don't have an ideal spread and you want all 18 holes to be like that. Does that make sense? So, you want to have some holes with a higher birdie percentage and some holes with a lower birdie percentage and depending on who's playing, if you look at UDisc Live for any of the big events over the last few years, there are so few bogeys carded by the lead groups. Something that, I've been working on is how do we make holes that are good and have a good birdie percentage and par percentage, but we'll still yield bogeys without getting crazy. So for example, I'm not an advocate of, let's put down a bunch of rope and add OB or mandatories or anything like that. So I've got some things I'm working on that can try to keep the holes authentic and challenging and still produce some bogeys and produce the number of birdies that we like. But that's a big challenge because these top guys are so good. They make a mistake, they're able to recover. So sure, you can make holes that are fluky. Or have a lot of OB and that'll get you bogeys. Although again, if you look at UDisc you don't see a lot of those orange squares. So that's an interesting challenge, but. In my mind right now, the most important thing is to get a good range of birdies. Generally above 10 to 15% and below 60, 65, but again, to have a bunch of everything in that spread.

Ryan:

Do you subscribe to the rule of sixes when you're doing that, when you're designing a course from the top down, or are you consciously ensuring that it's a fair for lefties and righties and there's an equal number of like straight shots? While you're constructing 18 or does the course and the land really dictate what the Hole look like?

John:

Yeah, it's important to me to be balanced. So I spend a lot of time on some of these bigger courses with pars and the, in the mid to high sixties. A lot of par fours and fives, and in my particular way of designing bigger landing areas, lots of options. So you can't say this drive is right to left and the approach is going to be left to right. Cause I may give the player the option of going left to right or straight or right to left. And depending on where they wind up in the landing area one day it might be right to left another day, it's left to right. So, that becomes a tricky balance, but I think we know it's important in general that nobody can go out there and throw all righty hyzers or all lefty hyzers and succeed on the course. So it's really important to keep that balance. I don't think there are many courses that actually have six dead, straight Hole. Dead, straight shots are hard to come by and with the the technology that we're using these days, they're there are to throw. You need to have some so that people show that they have that skill, but we've come a long way from six, six, six. And the other thing that happens, in the last 10 years, especially when you get to the top, almost everybody is a righty and a lefty, right? Cause they all throw big side arms for the most part and people of lower skill levels are able to go both ways too. I'm making a lot of holes now that I wouldn't have done 10 years ago. Again, especially for the top players, because they're able to throw shots that they didn't throw back then. Everybody has to be able to go both ways. These days. That's a big change.

Jack:

I just want to say, just tuning in after my debacle. I can't wait to listen to this podcast. Sounds really good.

Ryan:

Welcome back Jack. We had some filler questions for ya, while you were out. Now that you have all this data, and I'm sure that you've looked at data in the past from tournaments on the courses you've designed with UDisc Live PDGA scoring and having all of this data on Hole averages now available to you. Do you ever go back and look at some of the courses you've designed with the intent of redesigning them to be more difficult, if you see that you're not getting that scoring separation?

John:

Do I go back and look at statistics? Absolutely. Is it a wonderful part of the modern age that we have scores to look at uDisc, absolutely? mean, god it's so helpful, but to go back and redesign, that's not something I've done much of typically. I've redesigned a few of the older courses, but they're pretty much completely from scratch. I will be doing some work at Hillcrest farm. I've been trying to get there for a year now, but with the lockdown, the Canadian border has been closed and neither the Canadian, nor the U S government considers Disc Golf essential. If you can believe that.

Pat:

I I for one cannot. Yeah.

Ryan:

I think we'd all object to that statement on this podcast.

John:

It is, it is hard to believe. So I've been trying to get up there for a year so that we can put a Hillcrest gold layout together for the Canadian nationals. Now, the good news, such that it, is that the Canadian nationals hasn't happened since we started this process. So we haven't missed the opportunity. But that's one course where I don't expect there's going to be much redesigning other than some longer tees and some longer baskets and maybe opening some new alleys and that kind of thing. So I'm really looking forward to that. In my career, I've really only done one course that was, from the get-go, designed to challenge the best players in the game and that was WR Jackson at the international Disc Golf center. And, when they had pro worlds there in 2017, which was almost 10 years after it opened, the top players had gotten a lot better. So we did put in some longer pins and I think a few longer tees. And Ricky still managed to shoot a,12 or 13, something like that. But most of the courses I do are made for blue level players, which is an average of 950. And typically, if you look at a 950 rated round, it's right around par and that's what we want. But you know, the top guys go in there and they're shooting 12 and 13's. And, occasionally even better. So they're just playing a different game. So what I've started to do lately is put gold pins on most of the holes. So that happened at Harmony Bends. That's been working out pretty well. We're doing that at Agapa, we did it in a Rock Wall. So that's becoming more, more common. You really have to give these top pros a different challenge. Cause they're, just such a different level for me, even your regional pros, they need their own kind of challenge.

Ryan:

What's different about their skill set that makes designing to challenge them difficult? Is it distance or is it their scramble ability? Is it a combination?

John:

I, mean, you guys have seen them. I think it's everything. They tend to throw farther, but also, more accurately. They putt lights out. And they approach great. They're just better in all facets of the game. So it doesn't mean that the principles are necessarily different, but the shots need to be longer, tighter, more angle. Maybe more risk involved. It's real important for those guys, but, at all levels to, put strategy into the game. So it's important to me to give people options, to create landing areas that have better spots and worse spots. And so that people really have to think about what they need to do. So when you're talking about the top guys, it's just kind of more of the same, Heh, a lot of times, a lot more of the same, to create an appropriate challenge for them. Cause they're just so good.

Ryan:

What about the putting green? So there lights out at putting. They're hitting 90 plus percent C one X. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the smaller Disc Golf basket, camp. To me. I just think that if you shrink the baskets, sure putting might be more difficult, but these guys are hitting individual links from 40 feet.

Jack:

That takes so much excitement out of the game when you're going to make the target, basically un-Aceable. The velocity that comes in at, if you're going to ACE something, you make that small target, you're going to take ACEs out of the game. And to me, it just seems like that's, it's so much fun when they happen. And you knock the thing down to a marksman. You're never going to see an ACE again.

Pat:

What about the idea that the ACE is a mistake?

Jack:

So, I think that's certainly true. My friend Sylvia Sanchez says an ACE is just a bad shot that got stopped by the chains. So I don't discount that, but mistake or not, I mean, the thing, you know, so it depends, you know, you get to throw a flat shot, you're gonna throw hyzer flip and ACE the pin. That's a mistake, you throw a spike Heizer that otherwise was going to stay in the circle no matter where it went. That's a good ACE in my opinion.

Pat:

Hole 10 Beacon. I'm sorry.

Ryan:

But I guess, John, how do you address that challenge now? Where generally the, I think the consensus is that putting is a little too easy for the pros. I'd say the majority is probably on the side of keep the baskets, the size that they are now, but then how do you design greens that challenge them? What's your approach there? Or what's your perspective on that?

John:

Well, my solution to almost everything, at least as a first option, is to fix it with design. Not with the equipment. And, I know sometimes you're limited by what you have to work with and, there's a lot of speculation on what life would be like if we went to smaller baskets and you guys obviously have your theories, I have mine. Sounds like they're probably similar, but we won't really know until somebody tries it. So, what I would say is. It's not even necessarily a matter of the green, it's just about making it harder to get to circle one. I can show you data from holes at Harmony Bends, for example, when we move the baskets to the gold position, you don't see a lot of drives or second shots winding up in circle one. You have a lot of guys having to putt from circle 2, and right now, that's where it's interesting. Because circle one, like you said, getting pretty much automatic and, beyond circle two it's, as a percentage really low. So if you make holes where most of the time a good shot is landing, between one and two,I mean a great shot can land in circle one and they get to tap in, good for them. You can make holes where just getting really close is hard, getting, into the 40- 50 foot range is what happens with a good well executed shot. And then it's up to them now to see if they can make the putt.

Ryan:

Makes sense. I appreciate that, for sure.

Pat:

Yeah. Well, what about the idea of a raised basket? Hanging or stuff like that?

John:

Yeah, look this is just me. I mean, it is just me and I'm not gonna cancel anybody who thinks otherwise. I like a really natural look. So, if I'm doing a raised basket, it's because it's on a mound or a slope or something like that. Hanging baskets don't really do anything for me. There are some good things that happen when somebody has to putt up at a basket. Wind, getting underneath the Disc becomes more of a factor and makes it trickier. But my preference would be, and again, we did this at Harmony Bends, on Hole number 12, for example. We built mounds and, like, 60 foot diameter mounds, if I recall, right. Where the further you are from the pin, the more you're going to have to putt up hill and you control how much uphill you're going to have to deal with, based on how good your drive is. So that's really where I would rather see us be, but I know people love their raised baskets. I think the way the DGPT is doing it, it doesn't look real gimmicky. And people build their elaborate pyramids and you have to wonder if they had help from aliens to create it. And God bless em. That's fine. That's just not the kind of thing that I like to do on my courses.

Pat:

I was just thinking it could be a last minute, try to just add an extra few feet. You know what I mean? These guys, like you said earlier, are they're getting really good and you're looking for anything to maybe slow them down, in lieu of changing the course dramatically,

John:

Right. Now. Yeah, because sometimes you can't change it dramatically. Let me just be clear. We have a lot of clients who say,"One of our ultimate goals is to have a major, a national tour stop or a DGPT. And, we want a Gold layout." And like I said, we've done several of those. I like to do it, by adding gold pins. And, I think we may, see that at Saxon and by the way, there will probably be several naturally elevated baskets out there. Cause that's just the kind of terrain they have. But, if you can't do anything else and the only thing left is to raise the basket a little bit, to make it a little tougher for people, then, you do what you gotta do. I do think that we're about to approach a time. Where the bigger events and the sanctioning bodies, including the DGPT will need to say,"Look your holes need to meet a certain standard and do the job or you can't be on the tour until you fix it." So I think that's in our future. To be honest right now, the main thing that gets you a big event now is having the cash and, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry, the cash and having a good staff to run the event. Those are the two things that, you really have to have if you want to host a worlds or any kind of major. So I'm hoping we get to the point where you have to have those two things and an outstanding course in order to the host of that kind of event.

Ryan:

So just to wrap up on the design philosophy interrogation we've got going on with John here, any design decisions. When you step on a court for first time, is there anything you've ever seen that you're just like,"Oh, what, why did they do that?"

John:

Oh, my God.

Ryan:

I'm sure that's a common comment epiphany.

Pat:

a certain amount of time, Ryan.

John:

Do I have to have stepped on it or could I have watched the video?

Ryan:

Oh, please either.

John:

Again since we'd been talking about gold courses I left out Hickory cabins. They're going to have a gold layout too. So I'll have probably close to 10 before, too long. Of layouts that are appropriate for gold level players and gold level events. And a lot of the problems happen when people take a good course and try to make it harder for the top pros. All kinds of things happen there. Including strange rules. One thing we don't want to see is play stopping because nobody's quite sure what the ruling is on the way this particular Hole is played and do I go to the drop zone now or do I throw again then that kind of stuff's not good for the sport. So I have a rule personally, I don't ever want to denigrate the work of another designer. So, I'll just speak in general terms. Safety is always number one and there are still so many holes that are near other amenities, or throwing over sidewalks or next to sidewalks, that kind of thing when we need to get away from that. So all you aspiring designers out there let's get away from other amenities and other Park users. But then it has to be fair. Your gaps can't be so tight that you feel lucky if you got through them. It's another common mistake. Getting the distances wrong. Holes that are a shot and a half, instead of two shots are shot in three quarters or two and a quarter. Getting those right can be tricky. Especially, cause you have so many different skill levels to take care of. Okay, I don't think I'm getting too crazy when I say I think the sport looks better if we don't have shots, caroming off water towers and soccer goals and things like that. And again, look, I don't want to single anybody out. I don't want to put anybody down. You never know when you look at a course design, what their limitations were. Maybe there was no other place to put the Hole, maybe the local club or the parks director said"please, please, please put a hole here." Who knows? It's hard. It's hard to make the most out of the property that you have. It's hard to get the resources to do everything thing you wish you could do. People are doing their best, I don't doubt that. And I think as we go along, designers are getting better just the way players are getting better. I know for me, I'm a better designer than I was five years ago or 10 years ago. So it's a very exciting time for our sport. The players are improving, the purses are improving, the medias starting to get there and design opportunities are getting better and things you can do and design. I mean, I've done things on courses lately that I had only dreamed about for many years. And I know there's more of that ahead. Bottom line, do people make mistakes? Yes, but I think as an industry, we're getting better.

Pat:

I have one other question, and then if you guys are interested, we can do a round of trivia. If you guys have time. I know what it means, but can you explain a micro course for those out there? Listening maybe?

John:

Yeah, absolutely micro course is something that di came up with and it is a brilliant idea. I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. She is the one who came up with it and it is a shorter course it's kinda, you know, skills development and meant to be good for kids and seniors, but everybody enjoys playing. And she puts a lot of thought into the psychology of it. So they're not putting courses. They're not par two courses. They have a lot of variety of distances within them, but they'll typically be between 30 and 200, but they use Houck design principles. So she still tries to make sure that people have options and that the holes have a lot of character and what we call replayability, which means, it didn't work out the way you wanted to the first time. So you want to go back and get another crack at it and maybe you throw it differently that way. They're really neat, I think she's got them in seven States or maybe eight States by now. And there will be one in Canada, as soon as I can get up there. Now, micro is a great idea. And we're doing a few facilities now that we'll have a championship course and a micro course. So the, yeah. And there's even one in New York state at silver Bay up North of Albany.

Ryan:

So I actually just played a micro course. I doubt it was designed by you, John it's down in Lake Marshall at Virginia, but it was the first time I had ever played a sort of micro course where it was 18 holes and each hole was, I'd say between, I don't know, I'd say probably between 80 and 250. But man, it was such a blast. It was basically even for me, I'm like nine 70 is rated just to practice my upshot and try to throw some in what was like such a blast. What was cool about the layout that they had designed at Lake Marshall was you could play the 18, the micro course, but you strung together the first tee to the second basket and third to fifth, et cetera. And you could play a full nine and it was actually a great nine hole par three course as well. We were there for a tournament and the pro courses there, The lion and the Lair, were being played on all weekend for the tournament, but we had, just four or five of us had such a blast playing the micro and the nine Hole all weekend. So, it might seem like those courses are just for beginners or older folks, but it was a blast to me all at the same. We had great time.

John:

That's a great point. And let me just say Micro Disc Golf course is Dee's brand. So, wherever you played they should be calling it something a little different.

Ryan:

It's called the lambs. the lion, the lair and the lambs.

John:

Ah, got it. Okay. It's so true. The first micro course that she did was in Cedar park, which is just North of Austin. It's a little five Hole course and Squeezed into a park that has two detention ponds and not a whole lot of room, but the last Hole on the course was, I dunno, 35 feet or something like that. And the first week it was opened, somebody posted on Facebook, a two and a half year old kid who threw this sidearm roller and it just rolled all the way up to the basket to five feet. And he made his putt and everybody went crazy and that's the super fun, kid appropriate side of that kind of course. But, I had another friend who said, Oh my God, man, my buddy. Tried that course, and he wouldn't leave me alone. He said, come on, you got to try it. You got to try a week, 250 rounds in one day, you just keep going and going and going. And I said, he wouldn't shut up for an hour. So it's, it is it's thing. I mean, she had a brilliant idea and it appeals to everybody. And I think for what you said when you're taking a break from being on the big courses and you can go enjoy the micro course. That's the best of all worlds.

Pat:

I was going to ask, I know John you've had a long day. Are you up for around a trivia or do you want to, are you good?

John:

No, let's go. I'll just make a disclaimer. I've never been good at trivia and less so at the end of the day, but let's give it a shot.

Jack:

Oh, we should put him with, we should put him with Angelo then. I had to promise Angela myself, I'm not bad at trivia. I had to promise to Angela, myself to get them to come on tonight. I hope there's a lot of med school stuff in here.

Angelo:

Oh, I'm good. Now let's talk about coronavirus. I got you.

Jack:

ER, procedures. Yeah. What do you got Pat? Help a brother out.

Pat:

We got Dr. Jack and then John Ryan are, the teams were, do dubs. Let's see here. I'm sorry, Angelo. You haven't really had much to say tonight and now you guys go second. Cause you're on teams with Jack.

Jack:

Yeah, I forgot. I get punished.

Pat:

So John and Ryan will go first. Now how this works is for those that haven't played. I'm going to ask you a trivia question. You'll answer the question and then tell me if the answer that you gave me is a Disc or not a Disc. So you guys get the first question. That's John Ryan, question one. The name of what system that's used to detect and locate objects is a palindrome and an acronym? The name of what system that's used to detect and locate objects is a palindrome and an acronym?

Ryan:

Radar?

John:

Radar, and a character on that

Pat:

Is the radar a Disc?

John:

Help me out, Ryan.

Ryan:

Ooh. I knew the answer. I don't know if it's a Disc. Let's see, so. Usually what we do is we try to think about the brands and which ones are science-y. So MVP makes a lot of. Science-y related discs. They make relativities and things like that. Um, waves and photons. I do not think that they make a radar. I've never heard of a radar. I would wager no Disc. What do you think John?

John:

Can we phone a friend?

Pat:

As long as that friends, Ryan,

Jack:

Call them up.

John:

I'm feeling very confident that Ryan is the man here. No, no such Disc.

Pat:

Well, I'll tell you, Ryan. It is not an MVP disc.

Ryan:

Oh, so half right?

Pat:

It is a storm Disc storm, Disc Golf, September 5th, 2019. All right. You still gotta point for radar. Question two for Dr. Jack. The first law of thermodynamics is also known as the principle of conservation of what? The first law of thermodynamics is also known as the principle of conservation of what?

Jack:

Angelo?

Angelo:

Conservation of energy.

Jack:

I don't think so.

Angelo:

I'm pretty sure it's Conservation of energy. I'm like 99%.

Jack:

Okay, because I want to say is that the conservation of matter. Could be right. I'm going to go with the scientist.

Pat:

Final answer, energy?

Angelo:

Yes,

Pat:

Is the energy a disc?

Jack:

Oh, Angelo.

Angelo:

The energy is not a Disc.

Jack:

So the way he said that Angela leads me to believe that maybe it is a Disc.

Pat:

Or I just always check with both teammates.

Jack:

It's possible, Angelo. I want to say that it, I'm so scared, I'm going to say that it is a disc, Pat. It is a Disc.

Angelo:

The energy is a Disc.

Pat:

So you're both in agreement, MVP discs, June six, 2016. Question three, back to John Ryan from the Greek for, to give against what name is given to any remedy, which counteracts a swallowed poison? From the Greek for, to give against what name is given to any remedy, which counteracts a swallowed poison?

John:

To give against

Pat:

Correct.

John:

Word that pops into my mind is Antidote, but that couldn't possibly be close to a Disc.

Ryan:

Antidote or antivenom or let's see I'd like antidote. I think that makes sense.

John:

Give against.

Ryan:

You got the Anti in there, I guess does the Greek root of dote. mean to give?

John:

When you Dote on someone you give them a lot of attention.

Ryan:

Let's do it. Yeah do it. Antidote. Yes.

Pat:

Ladies and gentlemen, we're busting out some Latin at the Hudson Valley Disc Golf podcast. Yes. Is the antidote a Disc?

John:

Oh, Come on. I mean, the Anti-Flex, the anti- wobble. You have any sense partner?

Ryan:

You didn't have to be a pretty cocky Disc Golf company to name your Disc the antidote to all of your Disc Golf in problems.

Jack:

Your game is poison.

Ryan:

Here's your antidote.

Jack:

Here's the antidote.

John:

I think the problem is our host is willing to delve into the most obscure Disc companies the Disc that they made and got approved, but then quit molding. So anything's possible.

Ryan:

You're right.

Jack:

you have a very keen ear, John.

John:

What is incorrect and I'm thinking not

Ryan:

I'm thinking not as well. Let's go.

Pat:

Final answer, not? Salient Discs, December 16th, 2013.

John:

God. Now the question is it a Disc, right? Not, was it ever a disc.

Jack:

Is it on the PDGA approved list of discs?

Pat:

Yeah.

Ryan:

John, can you get us some millennium molds, like approved really quickly.

Pat:

Question four. This is for a Dr. Jack. What Carl Sagan book released in 1980 was also the title of his award-winning PBS TV show?

Jack:

Is that discovery? It's not Carl Sagan.

Pat:

What Carl Sagan book released in 1980 was also the title of his award-winning PBS TV show?

John:

Can we steal?

Ryan:

Yeah, right.

Pat:

If they don't get it. Yes, you absolutely can.

Angelo:

Jack, what Jack what books. Do you know what books he wrote?

Jack:

Not off the top of my head. I'm going to be better off with the TV shows, which I know I watched it. It was like space stuff,

Angelo:

Oh, it's cosmos. Cosmos, that's it? Yeah. I remember from, the other guy's name. Yes, that guy cosmos. What is cosmos?

Pat:

You are correct.

John:

And a character on Seinfeld, almost

Pat:

Yeah.

Jack:

Yeah.

John:

Kramer.

Pat:

Well that's, if you get more than one of them, Cosmo's Kramer.

Ryan:

Okay.

Pat:

Dr. Jack is the cosmos a Disc

Jack:

Come on Angelo, you know, more Disc than I do.

Angelo:

I feel like, no, I know it can't be, it can't be Disc. I'm going to say no. What do you think Jack?

Jack:

I'm going to say that the cosmos is... the cosmos is a Disc.

Pat:

Is the cosmos a Jack says it is, do you agree?

Angelo:

I'm going to go with the theme. I don't know of it personally, but everything has been a Disc. So yes it is. It is.

Pat:

Okay. You are correct.

Angelo:

What? made the Cosmos?

Pat:

December 29th, Viking Disc.

Jack:

Very nice.

Angelo:

That's funny.

Pat:

So that is through four questions. I've got Dr. Jack 4 John Ryan at 2.

Ryan:

These damn discs.

Pat:

John Ryan, question five. In the 1950s, Hymen Rickover led the team that figured out how to fit what into a submarines hull? In the 1950s, Hymen Rickover led the team that figured out how to fit what into a submarines hull?

Ryan:

Into the hull?. Wouldn't be like a torpedo. What's the question again, Pat?

Pat:

Sure. In the 1950s, Hymen Rickover led the team that figured out how to fit what into its submarines hull?

Ryan:

Into the hull.

Jack:

Oh, it's hull.

Pat:

H U L L.

Jack:

I was just, I was hearing Hole.

Ryan:

Oh,well, I would assume that it has something to do with maybe the material that they wanted to put in the hull, as opposed to what they were using. Something stronger. Maybe. What do you think John.

John:

I think it might be an Aviar.

Angelo:

Okay.

John:

Your first reaction was torpedo. I can't do any better than that, but, material does make sense.

Ryan:

Any Disc names that have a material like steel, or like what would they be using instead of iron? Jeez. Alright. I like torpedo.

John:

Maybe before then holds didn't have radar.

Ryan:

Now that we know it's a Disc. Yeah. I would say torpedoes.

Pat:

Are you guys good with that?

Ryan:

Sure.

Pat:

Dr. Jack, what do you think? In the 1950s, Hymen Rickover led the team that figured out how to fit what into a submarine's hull.

Angelo:

Actually, know this one.

Jack:

My partner says he knows it

Angelo:

It is a nuclear reactor.

Jack:

in text messages to me.

Pat:

He's texting you.

Jack:

He's texting me. Yeah. He can hear you. I guess we can't hear him. I was thinking maybe Periscope. Well, I'm interested to see what my partner

Angelo:

can you hear me or no?

Jack:

I'm tap dancing here if it seems like I'm just,

Pat:

Yeah, we can hear it.

Jack:

Oh you can. So I can't hear Angela it's a, my computer says is offline.

Angelo:

Oh, Jack has texted me. So Jack is offline. Okay, I'm going to go with a nuclear reactor.

Jack:

Yeah, go ahead and answer partner.

Ryan:

He says nuclear reactor, Jack.

Jack:

You know, whatever, my partner is the science guy, Man. That's the way it is.

Angelo:

I think Jack, he's showing up fine for me. That's odd.

Jack:

We're in this sub together, right? Angela, you believe it's nuclear reactor, is that our answer?

Angelo:

Yeah. I'm pretty sure. I'm like 99% sure. It's nuclear reactor. I remember that guy's name.

Pat:

Is the reactor a Disc?

Angelo:

That's an MVP Disc.

Jack:

Boom!,

Pat:

March 5th, 2020.

Jack:

The doctor, the is in.

John:

Right. Do they have an insurmountable lead.

Pat:

No. With all these extra points for the Disc, you never know.

Jack:

Our lead was always going to be insurmountable.

John:

I thought it was inconceivable.

Ryan:

Okay.

Pat:

This is for you guys. John Ryan. What word is used to describe the visible path in the wake of an aircraft? What word is used to describe the visible path in the wake of an aircraft?

Ryan:

Yeah. It's like aerial trail or Oh my goodness. Jet stream Airstream.

John:

Endtrail, contrail.

Ryan:

That's it. That's it. That's it. Yep.

Pat:

Is the contrail a Disc?

John:

It can't be.

Ryan:

If it's our luck, the opposite of what we're going to guess. So.

John:

What hang on. You guys know the host and his MO. Does he ever do seven in a row? Doesn't one of these have to be a no.

Jack:

First of all John I'm on the other team and I'm not going to tell you shit.

Ryan:

I would say he's relatively inconsistent, which makes him difficult to predict.

John:

That's what a professional trivia guy would do. If he were predictable, he wouldn't get many gigs. So, I mean, it can't be a Disc, right.

Jack:

If I had a nickel.

Ryan:

I feel like I'm playing rock paper scissors and Pat has thrown rock like eight times in a row and ninth and I want to throw paper, but I just can't do it. I'll say no as well, not a Disc.

Pat:

Sune Sport February 8th, It came out last month.

John:

Oh my God. Which company?

Pat:

Sune. S U N E sport, February 8th, 2021.

John:

Sune, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sune Sport from Norway,

Pat:

Okay.

John:

Is that, I mean, I'm guessing.

Jack:

You don't get points for any of this.

Ryan:

We sure as hell should.

John:

Now Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, no. Sune sport has to be Sune Vensel. The time overall world champion and chain smoker. Who was a great guy. I love him. And by the way, just in case we weren't clear before I also love Newman.

Jack:

You're going to have to make a phone call from me.

John:

Oh my God. And Sune you need to come up with better names for your discs.

Pat:

It is now six to three coming back. Dr. Jack, Latin for heap or mass, and typically in puffs or mounds, what type of cloud may reach up to 43,000 feet? Latin for heap or mass, and typically in puffs or mounds, what type of cloud may reach up to 43,000 feet?

Jack:

So I got Nimbus. I got Cumulus. That might be the end of my cloud vocabulary.

Angelo:

I think it's Cumulus cause puffs isn't Cumulusthe puffy cloud. I think Cumulus is it Cumulus cloud?

Pat:

Final answer. Cumulus? Is the Cumulus a Disc

Angelo:

I think we should roll the dice here, Jack. I don't think it's a Disc.

Jack:

All right. I'm with you.

Pat:

Final Answer, no?

Angelo:

No, not a

Jack:

when you say like that bad. Now, when you say it like that,

Pat:

Sune sport, February 2021. Sune Sport, February 8th, 2021. I saw you trying to sneak in there, Jack. You both agreed. Back to John Ryan. Light distorted by heated air leads to illusions known by what French word? Light distorted by heated air leads to illusions known by what French word?

Ryan:

Probably a Mirage. Is that French? Sounds French.

John:

Sure sounds French. And that was a Disc and I don't know Pat, but I'm guessing that's his deal. The Mirage was an innova disc in like 1940.

Jack:

Okay.

Ryan:

You heard it here? Final answer.

John:

It wasn't even a Golf disc, necessarily.

Pat:

So you're going to go with Mirage, and it's a disc?

Ryan:

Yes.

Pat:

It is Mirage. Innova, March 2nd, 2016, 2016.

John:

They recycled the name. They used it like in the eighties.

Pat:

Do you want to go with that one? Cause I don't give you points for that one. I'll give you the one for the 2016.

Jack:

Be smart. John, be smart.

Ryan:

We need both.

Pat:

All right. Question nine. This is for Dr. Jack. Truth and Beauty are alternate names that physicist once used for the top and bottom types of what particles? Truth and Beauty are alternate names that physicists once used for the top and bottom types of what particles?

Angelo:

Do you know what it is, Jack?

Jack:

I don't.

Angelo:

Q U A R K, Quarks.

Pat:

Is that your uh huh to me? You guys both agree with the Quark?.

John:

They get all the easy ones.

Jack:

I'm gonna refer you to my doctor.

Pat:

Yeah, the doctor got the right. Yeah.

Jack:

So bad at trivia partner.

Pat:

Is the Quark a Disc?

Jack:

Uh Doctor?

Angelo:

Yes, it is a Disc. I don't know

Jack:

Yeah, sure. roll the dice.

Angelo:

It's a Disc.

Jack:

We're playing with house money, you bet it's a Disc.

Angelo:

Sune Sports.

Pat:

I'm sorry, the quark is not a disc.

Jack:

Ahh nuts

Ryan:

Hallelujah.

Jack:

Wow. It sounds so legit.

Pat:

Question 10, John Ryan, rheostats and potentiometers are what type of devices that oppose the flow of current in electrical circuits? rheostats and potentiometers are what type of devices that oppose the flow of current and electrical circuits.

Ryan:

Resistor/ MVP sports.

Pat:

You agree?

John:

I was going to get resister, although I was also thinking maybe antidote, Ryan knows the answer and the Disc. So I'm all in.

Pat:

MVP sports September 23rd, 2013.

John:

That's my partner.

Jack:

He's a fucking engineer, right?

Pat:

All right.

Jack:

God damn it.

Ryan:

I went to an engineering school.

Jack:

I know you did. I know. I was so mad. I got a billion of em sitting here on my desk for my guitar.

Angelo:

Okay.

Ryan:

I believe it, no, I hang out with DB dubs, Dan Brooks-Wells. He throws lots of MVP plastic, and I'm pretty familiar with most of that lineup.

Pat:

Dr. Jack, we'll get 11. You guys are up eight to six.

Jack:

All right.

Pat:

With one question each.

Jack:

It's tight. Anything can happen.

Ryan:

Okay. Not too bad.

Pat:

Stainless steel is stainless because of what element often use to plate household appliances and machine parts? Stainless steel is stainless because of what element often use to plate household appliances and machine parts?

Jack:

So I think it might be Nickle. Oh, no it's not nickel. No, it's like what like motorcycle exhausts are made of and auto.

Angelo:

the chromium.

Jack:

Yeah, that's right.

Angelo:

Is that what makes it stainless though?

Jack:

That's what's in stainless steel that keeps it from rusting.

Angelo:

Okay. I'll go with you. And that's materials is not my thing.

Ryan:

You guys get the easy ones.

Pat:

Are you good with that?

Jack:

Yeah.

Pat:

Is the chromium a disc?.

Jack:

I'm less good with that, but I don't think we need it.

Ryan:

We don't want to be mathematically eliminated. Pat, can we wager for the final?

John:

Final round if you're wrong, you lose five points.

Jack:

Chromium. All right want, what do you want to do here on chromium Angelo?

Angelo:

Hmm. I dunno. I feel like it is not a Disc.

Jack:

Is it an element?

Angelo:

I'll defer to you if my choice is gonna be no, but I'll agree with whatever you say.

Jack:

I'm going to live with the doctor?

Angelo:

Wait,

Jack:

Oh, wait, the doctors, the doctors thinking.

Angelo:

Is there a chromium? I dunno. I dunno. You decide don't put me on the spot here.

Jack:

All right, I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna take this, the chromium. You go back to my bag and just check me my chromium. I need a chromium to get out of here.

Angelo:

That sounds pretty good.

Jack:

Does it? I think it sounds like shit.

Angelo:

No, I think it sounds pretty good.

Jack:

And it sounds like a Disc that I would like make fun of people for throwing, which generally means it is a Disc. This is really complicated. I'm gonna say no, Pat. No, the chromium is not a Disc.

Pat:

And you're both agreed? Element discs, October 21st, 2016.

John:

Okay.

Pat:

Okay. Final question. I know you guys say mathematically, but we're like you said, it's worth five points because.

Angelo:

Okay.

Jack:

Cause like, yeah, nah, I just got it. Angelo I've brought you along on this crazy ride where like I'm I'm okay at trivia, but apparently I need to be punished. So you can't win.

Pat:

All right. Our final question for John Ryan. In physics forces have magnitude and direction. So they're what type of quantity represented by an arrow?

Ryan:

Hold on. Hold on, hold

Pat:

In physics forces have magnitude and direction. So they're what type of quantity represented by an arrow?

Jack:

Angelo, we're going to be just fine.

John:

They are, what type of quantity?

Ryan:

The arrows are a type of quantity?

John:

Arrow was definitely a Disc.

Pat:

In physics forces have magnitude and direction. So they are what type of quantity represented by an arrow?

Jack:

Stop searching.

Ryan:

Oh, no, I'm searching my brain. Trying to go back to my physics days in high school, where we're propelling little marbles down a chute. And I'm trying to think of what that whole lesson was called. It's like perpetual mechanics, kinetic motion.

Jack:

There's a strict time limit on this John's in case you were wondering, you only have 30 seconds.

John:

What kind of quantity?

Ryan:

It's like angular momentum or something.

Jack:

Oh, this is so sweet.

Ryan:

I'm sure I'm dancing around it. This was also the toughest question for sure.

Jack:

Well, at worth five points it outta be.

Ryan:

That's fair, that's fair. alright.

Angelo:

No, I got this one. I know this one.

Ryan:

All right, John, I've got nothing. I think angular momentum is like my best I could do it's yeah.

Pat:

What do we think there? Dr. Jack

Ryan:

How about just momentum?

Pat:

Momentum. Okay. What do you guys think?

Ryan:

Still wrong.

Jack:

We steal a steal in this doctor.

Angelo:

Yeah, that would be a vector.

Ryan:

Dammit. Dammit. Dammit. Dammit, dammit.

Angelo:

The vector Jack.

Jack:

Doesn't matter at all. If the vector is a Disc.

Pat:

I know, but.

Ryan:

I still want you to get it

Angelo:

it is a desk. It is a mid range made by MVP.

Pat:

December 18th, 2010. And to answer a question from earlier, last week, nobody noticed that every question, the answer was a Disc. So I wanted to see how far I would go before somebody noticed.

Jack:

Before somebody found one that wasn't. Doctor, Congratulations. You. Absolutely. Sharked it. Yay. Science.

Angelo:

Yeah.

John:

Well done Angelo. It's too bad it wasn't alternating shot woulda brought you down.

Pat:

Final score nine to six, nine to six.

Ryan:

Until next time,

Pat:

you guys. Did you have anything else? Did anybody.

Jack:

No, I think we just had ourselves a kick ass podcast.

Angelo:

That was great. Thank you.

John:

That was great. I just want to say I love Disc Golf. I play whenever I can. I love designing gold courses. Newman is awesome had we had a freeze in Texas in February. I know it was no big deal for you guys, but it kept me from playing for two weeks at a time. Otherwise I play almost every day.

Ryan:

We hope we didn't scare you away, John.

Pat:

Yeah, hopefully there will be a next time. That would be fun.

John:

Seriously. Thank you, WeDGe. Thank you guys for a great podcast and the fun time. I'm very excited about Saxon woods and everything that's going on. And I'm just really, really looking forward to it.

Jack:

Thank you, John. For coming on.

Angelo:

Yeah, appreciate it.

Pat:

Angelo, any chance I can get you coming back in the next week or something? Cause we didn't really get to talk.

Angelo:

I'll make it done whenever you tell me, I'll be here.

Pat:

Cool.

Jack:

Then I got a new trivia partner.

Angelo:

As long as we're on science. We're fine.

Jack:

I'm going back to my old trivia partner.

Ryan:

Lucky you

Pat:

All right. Thanks again, everybody.

Angelo:

Appreciate it guys.

John:

you guys. Thank you.

Pat:

thank

Ryan:

thanks so much.

Pat:

Sweet up Hudson Valley.